Empty's Soapbox : Perception and Feel - "Sim" is a Lie.

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Empty's Soapbox : Perception and Feel - "Sim" is a Lie.

Postby mungewell » Wed Nov 20, 2013 7:41 pm

Starting a discussion about realism in Sims, and whether 'true to life' is better/worse the 'user expectation'.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GsLfEzeJUs0
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Re: Empty's Soapbox : Perception and Feel - "Sim" is a Lie.

Postby jjsca » Fri Nov 29, 2013 6:33 pm

I like the way sims are described in the vid. It is quite true that what is really important is the perception of the car behaviour but in my opinion there is another aspect wich might be even more important: Immersion. It is not enough to have a car the handles or feels "right". If the car handles like a ferrari, but the 3d model is not making you feel you are in a ferrari or even worse, the car sounds like your neighboor's lawn mower, you will never feel the car is "right". That is the difference beetween a graphically impressive GT5 wich lacks that little something to make you smile at each corner and GTR2 or Rfactor which is graphically less good but they are so immersive (I like all 3 of them but they are different).

Now what I have seen and felt playing Speed Dreams, I would say it lacks immersion, graphically and soundwise it is very basic. I don't blame that, I mean some 3d models are impressive (for so little poly) and some sounds are cool and It is not easy to get good sounds and combine everything to reproduce a cars "ambience".
I don't how much the new graphics engine has advanced but I wonder if there is a way to have a higher polycount per car (to make a decent interior), higher texture size and possibility to implement a multi-shader system (that is to avoid a reflective dashboard with leather texture, wich is strange :D ).
Soundwise I wonder how much improvements it would make to have a gearbox sound, engine oscilation (after gear change or when reving too low) and more realistic bangs and booms (after throttle release or gear chage), finally a different sound for inside and outside fo the car.

Virtual example http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1v3StyQONsQ
Real example http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDkdg4VMdyE
Speed dreams http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7Fm-daF5Jw

Besides that the physics are quite good in speed dreams. There is only one point to review it is the way a car looses grip, it is totally impossible to drift a car (even in dirt) and when pushing hard the cars have strange ways to slide out of corners, but excpet that I am convinced the physics are good. When experimenting around with setups I noticed it is possible to change massively the behaviour of a car with suspension tweaking and that is a really good point in SD.

I hope this opinion gives you constructive comments and I will try to deliver you some nice 3D models to play with :D

Have a nice evening.

J.J.
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Re: Empty's Soapbox : Perception and Feel - "Sim" is a Lie.

Postby mungewell » Fri Nov 29, 2013 7:30 pm

jjsca wrote:I don't how much the new graphics engine has advanced but I wonder if there is a way to have a higher polycount per car (to make a decent interior), higher texture size and possibility to implement a multi-shader system (that is to avoid a reflective dashboard with leather texture, wich is strange :D ).


Basically for SD2.x we don't have any options. PLIB is old and the limiting factor, there is some work on a OSG render which is in the SVN repo but at this time it only does a minimal rendering of the scene. Just making better internal textures would make a lot of difference. There is somewhat a disconnect between feature capabilities and actual content.

The reflections have already been noted, and apparently there is a fix in changing the way items are named within the ACC file. Some just needs to do it...
http://sourceforge.net/apps/trac/speed-dreams/ticket/470

Regarding 'immersion' in the videos, did you see my video on Bezel compensation?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSZ3Pq8b4cU

I'm planning to do another 'GoPro 1st person' view of racing 1st/cockpit view next week.

jjsca wrote:Soundwise I wonder how much improvements it would make to have a gearbox sound, engine oscilation (after gear change or when reving too low) and more realistic bangs and booms (after throttle release or gear chage), finally a different sound for inside and outside fo the car.


You should have a look at:
http://www.tracktimeaudio.com/

This guy's a sound geek, and got hired to work on Forza 5. Dream job or what...?

jjsca wrote:I hope this opinion gives you constructive comments and I will try to deliver you some nice 3D models to play with :D


J.J. your comments are awesome. Its great to have people on the forum who share a passion for SIM racing and (hopefully) see potential in what SD could become.
Simon.
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Re: Empty's Soapbox : Perception and Feel - "Sim" is a Lie.

Postby chad3006 » Mon Dec 02, 2013 3:50 pm

I must say the graphics on many of these new driving/racing sims are amazing to me. I'm really impressed with the Youtube example you've linked above. However, my economic reality just doesn't allow me to have such things. I live in the boondocks and have no internet, 3G, or land-line phone at home and all my hardware is so low spec I could never run the beautiful graphics those sims require.

It is precisely those limitations that drew me to Speed Dreams. Still, I think Speed Dreams has very good physics and I think most cars respond as they should, when set up properly. The graphics are certainly not cutting edge, but respectable. Personally, I don't drive the cars from the driver's seat, so interiors and animated drivers are not important to me.

I prefer a middle ground between gaming and sim. I never cared much for the Need for Speed games because they were too arcade-like, but I don't need so much realism (as in Flightgear) that I have to study a manual just to start the engine.

When it comes to perception, I really think physics trumps graphics. I think of it like a stage play. If the play and actors are good then, the scenery could be cardboard cut outs and costumes don't matter much – it's still a good play and the audience can suspend their disbelief. But a bad play with bad actors can't be saved with the most realistic scenery.
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Re: Empty's Soapbox : Perception and Feel - "Sim" is a Lie.

Postby ayrusida » Wed Apr 30, 2014 4:29 pm

Almost same like me, from the day when Gran Turismo came out, i always dreaming to play it, but it only ended as dream, then came Torcs, but the graphic is very2 outdated, luckily i found Speed Dreams, to bad i knows no programming, 3d imaging, etc. Cause i want to add more cars, tracks, and classes. But it's O.K for now, you guys really doing a great job :)

Well, for people like Sim Racing is the only thing to satisfy my need for speed/racing :) cause the real one is too expensive and dangerous, maybe i can join an underground streer racing, but the risk is unbearable, real live foes didn't bother to "eliminate you" and policeman (the sore winner) dont mind to bust your 455 up,
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Re: Empty's Soapbox : Perception and Feel - "Sim" is a Lie.

Postby Aliraza153 » Sat Jan 03, 2015 10:24 am

Feel like I might hit 'longday' this evening....

And if you hadn't heard, Loic Duval has 'totaled' Audi #1 during practice. No word on his condition, other than he's awake and talking when taken the medical center.
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Re: Empty's Soapbox : Perception and Feel - "Sim" is a Lie.

Postby aof » Mon Apr 17, 2017 7:23 am

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Re: Empty's Soapbox : Perception and Feel - "Sim" is a Lie.

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Re: Empty's Soapbox : Perception and Feel - "Sim" is a Lie.

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Re: Empty's Soapbox : Perception and Feel - "Sim" is a Lie.

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